Good Creation and Natural Evil - 180009

0:04 [Music] 0:30 welcome to the creator revealed 0:34 I'm Tim Standish and I'm a scientist 0:37 scientists are trained to observe things 0:41 in nature and one of the things that we 0:45 observe is evil you know last time we 0:49 talked about human in relational evil 0:52 but this time we're going to talk about 0:55 evil in nature natural evil and we're so 1:00 glad that you have joined us because you 1:02 know this is such an informative series 1:05 and we're glad that you're enjoying it 1:06 you know before we actually go on I do 1:10 want to point out that what we call evil 1:13 is really something that is subject to 1:17 definition and we shouldn't be 1:20 distracted by the evil from all of that 1:24 is wonderful out there in nature as well 1:26 from the biblical perspective we do 1:29 acknowledge evil but we also recognize 1:33 the good and we believe that the good 1:37 was created by God at the very beginning 1:41 Moses wrote about this creation in this 1:45 way 1:45 in Genesis 1:31 he said then God saw 1:49 everything that he had made and indeed 1:51 it was very good 1:53 arrey so that evening in the morning 1:55 with a sixth day 1:57 so now they're going to go on into the 1:59 Sabbath and and rest and spend that time 2:03 together with God I can't imagine how 2:06 beautiful the creation was and yet we 2:11 see things today that are the result of 2:14 sin those sin is evil and the results of 2:18 sin are evil consequences death 2:22 suffering tears pain so God cursed the 2:27 earth because of the fall because of the 2:29 evil yes oh and and human beings chose 2:35 the evil over the good it's it seems 2:38 incredible in retrospect that that would 2:41 happen and and 2:43 yet I know that I've made that same 2:45 decision myself on occasion but and you 2:48 know when you think about deception 2:50 sometimes people don't realize that what 2:53 the devil hands us can be in a shiny 2:57 foil package with a beautiful bow and 2:59 it's nothing more than gift-wrapped 3:02 garbage unfortunately that's the case of 3:05 and yet we go for it on occasion and in 3:08 fact I think we're going to talk right 3:10 now about some gift-wrap garbage okay 3:13 that's kind of harsh 3:14 I believe that Charles Darwin was a very 3:17 brilliant man and that he understood the 3:20 implications of what he was saying and 3:21 that's one of the things that we are 3:23 contemplating now because he he remember 3:25 he had this alternative materialistic 3:28 conception of reality and he wrote this 3:30 he said from the war of nature from 3:34 famine and death the most exalted object 3:38 which we are capable of conceiving 3:40 namely the production of the higher 3:42 animals directly follows Wow well so 3:49 what what Darwin is saying is that thing 3:51 that we all know in our hearts is awful 3:55 death suffering war those sorts of 3:58 things that that is what produced the 4:01 beautiful things yeah whereas the 4:05 biblical view the the reality that's 4:08 actually out there is that God created 4:11 all of that beauty all of that Wonder 4:14 and the death the suffering that evil is 4:18 an imposition on God's originally very 4:21 good creation so these are very very 4:24 different views of things why would a 4:27 Darwin us to consider war and death to 4:30 be bad it's it's a good thing it makes 4:32 it makes wonderful things like human 4:34 beings and and eagles and and you know 4:38 all of those things that we kind of 4:40 wonder about but a convoluted way of 4:42 thinking well but you say that because 4:46 you're coming at it from a biblical 4:48 perspective yes but from a Darwinian 4:51 perspective you could not 4:54 say that it's the only logical thing 4:57 from a Darwinian perspective I mean you 4:59 just look at the pictures of what's 5:01 going on in Syria for example how can 5:03 anyone say war is good how can anyone 5:06 say something is resulting that's good 5:08 from that when you see all the 5:10 destruction in suffering God has built 5:13 into us that fundamental understanding 5:16 it is evil and evil is a bad thing it 5:20 doesn't produce good things in fact the 5:24 Bible again this is Paul writing in the 5:26 New Testament he says the last enemy to 5:29 be destroyed is death death is not our 5:31 friend 5:32 death is not how creator or part of the 5:36 process of creating us death is the 5:39 enemy and Jesus Christ our creator of 5:43 course overcame death now I want to 5:45 address one of the arguments is commonly 5:47 put forward about the creation when we 5:52 look at it remember this is what 5:53 scientists do we look at things and as I 5:55 said you know I look at nature and I see 5:57 evil things I see things that break for 6:01 example and there is this argument out 6:05 there that because nature breaks doesn't 6:08 work the way we think it should do that 6:11 somehow other that is evidence that it 6:13 isn't created hmm however that is a 6:16 flawed logic this is a picture here that 6:19 I'm showing of a Ford Pinto this um no 6:23 it wasn't mine now Ford pintos they 6:31 frankly were terrible cars I think 6:33 anybody who's had an encounter with a 6:34 Ford Pinto though there's probably there 6:36 probably a few Ford Pinto fans out there 6:38 I'm sorry 6:39 but that they they're just terrible 6:42 vehicles and but nobody doubts that they 6:46 were designed and they were designed for 6:48 a purpose that's that so even bad design 6:54 is still designed it still requires a 6:56 mind the question really is is the 6:59 designer good or is the designer evil is 7:04 God good when we see these broken 7:07 business 7:08 so let's take let's just take a look at 7:10 some of these things this is this is my 7:13 beautiful dog Jack and you can see he 7:15 was so intelligent so full of love 7:17 what Jack's doing here is he's actually 7:19 climbing into my suitcase no is she 7:22 packing packing he wanted to come home 7:25 with me and only less than a year ago I 7:29 held Jack in my arms while he died and 7:33 that was an awful awful experience in 7:38 fact just talking about it now it kind 7:39 of it makes me it makes me profoundly 7:42 sad what a wonderful lovely creature 7:45 how can it be that our bodies grow old 7:48 and and we die how can that happen well 7:52 you know the wages of sin and death we 7:54 know this so you know the Bible doesn't 7:59 ignore this suffering and pain that 8:01 we're in fact in Romans Paul also wrote 8:05 this he said we know that the whole 8:07 creation has been groaning as in the 8:10 pains of childbirth right up to the 8:12 present time not only so but we 8:14 ourselves who have the firstfruits of 8:18 the Spirit groan inwardly as we wait 8:20 eagerly for our adoption as sons the 8:24 redemption of our bodies you see the 8:27 Bible provides hope the same God who 8:30 created us our Creator is our Redeemer 8:35 and he adopts us even though we rejected 8:39 him it's an amazing because it's such 8:42 incredibly good news it's rooted in our 8:46 thinking about the creation and of 8:49 course Paul also wrote this through one 8:51 man sin entered the world and death 8:53 through sin and thus death spread to all 8:56 men because all sinned this is in Romans 8:59 five he actually says the same thing 9:00 over and over again so that we get it 9:01 right we can't we can't misunderstand 9:04 here 9:04 death is a result of sin okay 9:08 and it's and we can say okay that's a 9:10 natural result you know we separated 9:12 ourself from life I mean you know I I 9:14 just want to say this in case there's 9:15 somebody's watching who thinks well my 9:18 two-year-old just died he didn't sin 9:19 talking about the the direct correlation 9:22 of what you did 9:24 I mean maybe for the second death yes 9:26 but just that when sin entered the world 9:29 everything started decaying it is going 9:32 to be recreated that's right and that's 9:34 one of the reasons that death is so 9:37 awful is because it's so unjust yes the 9:39 righteous die and the sinners die 9:42 everybody dies I mean you know this is 9:44 we know this is not the way it should be 9:46 but there's another kind of evil out 9:48 there and I'm illustrating it with this 9:51 Viper here it's it's a rattlesnake 9:53 obviously and when we look at them when 9:56 we look at their system of envenomations 9:58 it looks like it's designed how do we 10:01 how do we account for that as Christians 10:04 and the truth is we don't know we don't 10:09 know how that system that has only one 10:13 purpose and it is to kill how did that 10:16 come into being the problem is that we 10:21 have too many possible explanations yes 10:24 some people say the devil did it some 10:27 people say it's just sort of some kind 10:29 of natural consequence of things 10:30 breaking down some people even say God 10:33 did it you know God somehow or other 10:35 when he cursed the earth and certainly 10:38 he specifically cursed snakes maybe 10:41 maybe that was it we don't know it's a 10:45 mystery it is a mystery but what we do 10:48 know is that there is still an awful lot 10:50 of beauty and and goodness that is 10:53 evident in the creation and oh we also 10:57 know by the way that snakes and all not 10:59 alone I like tarantulas yeah it kind of 11:02 like slowly thinks but they did they do 11:05 have venom and they can inject it into 11:07 you so you'd have to you know don't you 11:09 don't go and pick up every tarantula out 11:11 there as I'm doing in this in this 11:13 photograph but just understand hey you 11:15 know there are there's lots of this that 11:18 we see out there but here is what the 11:21 Bible tells us this is Paul again he's 11:23 writing to Timothy my namesake and he 11:26 says here is a trustworthy saying that 11:28 deserves full acceptance Christ Jesus 11:32 came into the world to save sinners of 11:34 whom I am the worst I could say the same 11:37 thing about myself as well yes and 11:40 that's really what the Bible brings to 11:43 us the promise of a solution to this 11:46 problem it recognizes the problem and 11:48 provides a solution and what the 11:51 solution is is the new creation and we 11:54 have this wonderful view of the new 11:56 creation in Isaiah the Book of Isaiah 11:58 which talks a lot about creation by the 12:00 way here 12:02 he writes the infant will play near the 12:05 Cobras den the young child will put its 12:08 hand into the Vipers nest 12:10 why because there will be no death no 12:13 suffering that's all going to be 12:15 eliminated in God's new creation amen 12:19 I I'm just I'm just struck by the hope 12:24 that the Bible gives it it's not a book 12:28 of sort of idealism or made-up stories 12:34 it is a book about reality the real 12:37 things that are going on in the world 12:39 that we observe all around us but it is 12:42 also a book about the reality that is 12:46 coming it tells us what the solution to 12:49 what we know is wrong is so what does 12:54 this natural evil tell us about the 12:57 Creator well there are a couple of 12:59 things that are important points that we 13:00 can pull out of this first his selfless 13:04 sacrifice to overcome the impact of sin 13:08 on his creation it the evil makes that 13:12 whole the more meaningful he suffered as 13:14 we do and it also tells us about his 13:17 original plan for his creation remember 13:20 he had a plan of salvation that again 13:23 reveals his selflessness 13:25 so the created things made evil by sin 13:28 reveal the creator's selflessness you 13:32 know that always blows my mind when I 13:34 think about the fact that he knew before 13:37 he created us with his foreknowledge 13:40 things were gonna go south and 13:42 yet he planned before even created us to 13:47 come down here become a man and save us 13:51 that's amazing what we are going to take 13:55 just a moment's break and come back with 13:57 a very interesting guest so please stay 14:00 tuned 14:03 [Music] 14:09 welcome back to the Creator revealed 14:11 today we've been talking about natural 14:15 evil and we're going to plumb the depths 14:17 of that just a little more special guest 14:20 it's a pretty deep topic the guest that 14:24 we're going to speak with is dr. Ronnie 14:25 narleen dr. narleen is my colleague in 14:29 fact his office is right next to mine at 14:31 the Geoscience Research Institute his 14:33 PhD is in geology but he has done a lot 14:37 of thinking about what we call a problem 14:41 of evil because as you know at the 14:44 Geoscience Research Institute we are 14:46 interested in this relationship between 14:49 science and faith so I'm delighted to 14:54 have dr. Darlene here with us and I 14:57 would I want to start out by actually 14:59 asking a question that that bothers me 15:03 and I'm guessing most other people which 15:06 is okay we know that according to the 15:10 Bible death and suffering entered the 15:13 world because of man's sin but just 15:16 because Adam sinned why why should 15:20 animals suffer you know why I talked 15:23 about my dog why did my dog have to die 15:25 because Adam chose to sin okay that's a 15:31 good question team and it's a question 15:34 that I think goes even beyond the rearm 15:37 of the animals or other living beings it 15:41 seems that there are unbalances in the 15:43 earth as a whole we experience events 15:46 that are very troublesome because they 15:49 can bring that we could say that the 15:52 whole system here on earth 15:54 mmm brings pain and and there are events 15:58 that are very hazardous so it even goes 16:01 beyond sickness or disease it is a 16:03 dangerous world why is it that our world 16:06 should become dangerous because of our 16:09 mistakes and I think my way of reading 16:13 this is to see the system as an 16:16 integrated system there is there are 16:19 many different components that are 16:20 linked together 16:22 and we are part of this system in fact 16:25 in Genesis where it is said that we were 16:28 given dominion over this system Dominion 16:32 means that we have a very intense 16:34 relationship with the rest of the 16:36 creation so by our own choices we can 16:39 affect the rest of the creation which is 16:41 quite a humbling thought if you think 16:43 about it think that you your choices can 16:49 have an effect on what occurs in the 16:52 world around us and I think this is 16:53 still true you know in in my in my area 16:58 of study which is in biology certainly 17:01 this is something that we spend a lot of 17:02 time thinking about the the impact that 17:07 human beings have directly on the rest 17:09 of the creation is something that we do 17:11 have at least some limited control over 17:12 and so when you referred to it being a 17:18 dangerous world you're a geologist so 17:20 what would be some examples of the of 17:22 the danger out there I'm thinking of 17:23 earthquakes but yeah I mean the the 17:29 classic ones are earthquakes volcanic 17:31 activity and obviously also climate 17:34 related events so hurricanes or 17:38 floodings broadenings are actually one 17:41 of the most dangers so one could say at 17:45 this scale how can human decision impact 17:49 this kind of events and I would agree 17:52 with those who are a little skeptical 17:54 there are some aspects with where we do 17:58 have incredible effects for example 18:01 flooding can be the result of this 18:05 management of water resources but when 18:09 it comes to earthquakes for example well 18:11 there are some earthquakes that can be 18:13 generated by activities of humans 18:18 there's some link that has been 18:20 established with fracking and some 18:23 earthquakes but in general earthquakes 18:27 are related to the motion of plate so 18:30 it's not like we can move the crust of 18:33 the earth or have an effect at that 18:35 scale so 18:36 the discussion that becomes at a greater 18:38 level we start to think why is it that 18:42 God allows for these things to occur why 18:46 one of them acts of God when they happen 18:50 yeah it means that in some ways God 18:54 warrants the possibility for the system 18:58 to be in this way and so I do believe 19:01 that we find also in the Bible some some 19:05 facts that point in that direction by 19:07 saying for example that the Sun rises on 19:10 the evil and the good or that God sends 19:13 rain on the righteous and the righteous 19:15 what does that mean it means that God 19:17 maintains the integrity of the sinful 19:19 world so these things can happen and God 19:23 in the innocence allows them to happen 19:26 not that it is the source of them 19:28 necessarily but why would he allow for a 19:31 space to exist where these things can 19:33 happen and this for me can only be 19:35 explained if we put it in the context of 19:39 this great cosmic conflict between good 19:41 and evil where God has to allow or seen 19:46 to express itself sin has to be 19:49 expressed in its in a physical space if 19:52 there is no physical space if there's no 19:54 possibility for humans to bring their 19:58 choices to the conclusions or the 20:00 consequences of their choices then you 20:02 wouldn't see the meaning of what scene 20:05 it's in the very end so so what you're 20:09 saying basically is if we didn't see the 20:14 natural consequences of sin actually 20:16 play themselves out why would we believe 20:18 it was bad why would it be evil we you 20:22 know if sin had absolutely no 20:24 consequences and we still have these 20:27 difficulties in our everyday life it's 20:30 hard to understand what is good and what 20:33 is evil it's very hard you know one of 20:36 one of the things that I really struggle 20:38 with is this is this business of you 20:41 know blessings falling on the good and 20:43 on the evil but also that the 20:47 consequences of 20:48 evil falling on the good people as well 20:51 because it's it's so intrinsic to our 20:56 nature to say that is unjust those those 20:59 who are righteous should not have to 21:02 suffer but that is the nature of evil 21:06 yeah yeah I think that is also one of 21:11 the reason why I 21:12 I love the biblical narrative why 21:16 because the Bible is trying to tell us 21:18 God does not look and that's not like 21:22 evil God is for good and so what we 21:25 experienced today is an anomaly so the 21:28 biblical narrative is not a narrative of 21:30 progressive growth and you know finding 21:35 the way through the hardness of life and 21:38 think God started things this way 21:40 because it was the only possible way so 21:43 evil was a mean towards a good end so 21:47 evil becomes the instrument that God 21:50 uses to bring about new possibilities 21:53 and ultimately goodness that's not the 21:55 biblical story the biblical story starts 21:58 with something very good and then all so 22:02 for me the concept of a fall from a good 22:05 creation is very crucial because then I 22:08 can decide on God's side and say yes 22:11 indeed what I am seeing today what I am 22:14 experiencing today is not part of God's 22:16 original plan is not how he designed the 22:19 creation is not the way in which he 22:21 wants us to leave you know when I think 22:24 about it the way I think about it Ronnie 22:26 is that when God created everything it 22:29 was very good and he wanted to when he 22:33 gave dominion to mankind it was to be 22:36 exercised in covenant 'el love so when 22:40 the fall happened it wasn't just a moral 22:43 fall it was a governmental fall because 22:46 he passed it over to whom it was like a 22:50 coup d'etat the keys basically to Satan 22:53 so that's the ruler of the air the you 22:58 know what else Ronnie that what you were 23:00 saying really brought to mind 23:02 our discussion in another episode of 23:04 theistic evolution where people are 23:06 saying hey this this suffering this 23:10 death this struggle that is the plan and 23:16 it's it's interesting how the Bible sort 23:19 of points in precisely the opposite 23:22 direction 23:23 it's the contrary when it comes to that 23:25 yeah some some critics say well you 23:28 still have to explain why God allows 23:31 world is evil to exist after the or 23:34 kidneys shorten days or couldn t 23:36 intervene to mitigate some of these 23:38 consequences so still there is an 23:40 argument there but what I think is the 23:43 crucial difference is that it is not the 23:47 way that God has designed for the 23:50 creation to be that's the key difference 23:52 God has not decided to make the warm in 23:56 this way the model that we adopt is a 23:59 model where that is not part of picture 24:02 well in addition later in addition to 24:05 that what what I love about it is that 24:08 the plan of salvation was also in place 24:11 at the foundation of the world that that 24:14 was there so God doesn't prevent us from 24:17 doing evil so that then we don't have 24:19 freedom of choice god provides that 24:23 freedom of choice we exercise it but God 24:26 has chosen to redeem us anyway he has a 24:30 plan yes in time didn't exist before he 24:33 created the earth and when we think 24:35 about it the Bible says that a day is 24:37 like a thousand years or a thousand 24:39 years is like a day to the Lord so it 24:42 may seem long for us but to God it's 24:46 just kind of it's a very short time but 24:49 we have to see it work out so that we 24:53 know name 24:55 what is it name 1:9 says that evil will 24:59 never rise again by the time we see what 25:01 the consequences of evil are we've done 25:04 the experiment we've done the expressly 25:05 the outcome there is this concept of 25:09 conflict that is very important for me 25:12 this concept of resistance so 25:16 a battle and it's important because we 25:19 can choose to be on God's side and I 25:21 feel he is on our side is not on the 25:24 against us is not going after as is not 25:27 punishing us is active in the creation 25:30 for good and you know what I like about 25:32 this concept that it has very practical 25:34 implications today even in a fallen 25:38 world we can choose when it comes to 25:40 natural evil which side we want to be on 25:44 in fact even a geologist can work to 25:47 mitigate hazards hazards natural hazards 25:50 are not random they are not mysterious 25:53 they occur these things occur for very 25:56 specific reasons in very specific places 25:58 we can study them we can try to 26:01 understand them better 26:02 and in so doing I think we are siding 26:05 with God and trying to be them 26:08 instruments the hands that bring about 26:10 some goodness into this fallen world and 26:13 certainly siding with God is the way 26:15 that we want to go I want to thank you 26:17 so much for joining us dr. narleen and 26:21 well you know the interesting thing to 26:24 me is even with all of this evil that we 26:28 do see in the world even with all of 26:31 that there is hope that the Bible gives 26:36 we are not alone we're not without hope 26:39 we have this plan of salvation yes evil 26:45 exists now but yes we have a firm hope 26:48 in what God will do in the future 26:52 amen and God's going to create a new 26:55 heaven and a new earth where there'll be 26:56 no more pain or sorrow join us next time 27:01 [Music] 27:23 you