Believing the Bible and Believing Science - 180012

0:01 [Music] 0:30 welcome to the creator revealed my 0:33 name's Tim Standish and I'm a scientist 0:36 one of the major questions that gets 0:40 raised with me on a regular basis is how 0:46 can you be a scientist and believe the 0:49 Bible what's what's going on there and 0:52 that is what we are going to examine a 0:55 little bit in this particular episode of 0:58 the Creator revealed well I'm Shelly 1:01 Quinn and we are so glad that you are 1:04 joining us and it is wonderful to be 1:07 with someone who has so much education 1:10 and experience in science and yet who is 1:14 a bible-believing six day creationist so 1:20 we look forward to this episode you know 1:24 sometimes I respond to that question 1:26 with well why wouldn't I believe the 1:31 Bible the Bible is a book about reality 1:34 and as a scientist 1:35 hey reality that's what I am interested 1:39 in you know I just want to comment on 1:41 that because so many people don't see 1:42 the reality of it all but there is you 1:46 know when you look at the internal 1:48 evidence the as far as its the 1:52 cohesiveness of the story when you look 1:54 at the external evidence when you look 1:57 at the the Dead Sea Scrolls when you 1:59 look at what the archaeologists are 2:02 uncovering that continually prove 2:04 there's so much that proves that that 2:07 the Bible is real well yes you know the 2:11 Bible presents itself as a book about 2:14 reality and a record of history and when 2:18 we took when we talk about the creation 2:20 account that's given there it is laid 2:23 out just like the rest of the history in 2:26 the Bible and as you pointed out the 2:29 science of archaeology has certainly 2:33 presented us with pretty amazing 2:36 evidence the that history is 2:40 is very very reliable and there's more 2:46 than that this history that's given in 2:48 Scripture is it is hopeful history it's 2:53 it's it it's it's not history that you 2:57 wouldn't want to believe it's it's not 2:58 gloom and doom or something it's not 3:01 saying we're all going to die and 3:02 that'll be the end or anything like that 3:04 there is this beautiful history that's 3:06 laid out the past the present and the 3:09 future that's there but it's not a kind 3:13 of airy-fairy theological book really 3:17 even though III tend to think about it 3:19 that way no it's about the facts it's 3:22 about what people saw happen it's a 3:23 record of God's action throughout 3:27 history you can certainly think about it 3:29 that way and by the way I would 3:31 certainly be happy to believe other 3:35 historical sources for example if I went 3:37 to Egypt and there was a pyramid with 3:39 something that said I the Pharaoh who 3:41 built this did these great things I'd 3:44 tend to believe that well why would I 3:46 treat the Bible has a less reliable 3:49 historical resource than some Pharaoh 3:51 bragging about himself 3:52 well let's launch into this and I want 3:55 to start to illustrate this point with 3:57 first John one through three let's just 4:00 look at what's being said here by the 4:02 Apostle John he says that's that which 4:05 was from the beginning which we have 4:07 heard which we have seen with our eyes 4:09 which we have looked upon with our hands 4:13 oh sorry looked upon and our hands have 4:15 handled concerning the word of life the 4:18 life was manifested and we have seen and 4:21 bear witness and declare to you that 4:24 eternal life which was with the father 4:26 and was manifested to us that which we 4:30 have seen and heard we declare to you 4:34 that you also may have fellowship with 4:36 us and truly our Fellowship is with the 4:39 father and with his son Jesus Christ 4:42 I realize account science is about 4:46 empirical evidence or empirical data 4:49 stuff that has been observed with our 4:51 senses what we have seen 4:54 we have heard science is built off that 4:58 foundation the Bible is built off 5:01 exactly the same foundation people say 5:05 the Bible isn't a book of science well 5:07 why isn't it 5:08 it's about empirical observation and 5:11 certainly that is true when it comes to 5:13 the case of the the situation with Jesus 5:16 Christ and the resurrection and so on 5:17 I've highlighted these different words 5:21 on the screen here all these words that 5:24 have to do with our empirical senses 5:28 yeah John is really into this I John saw 5:32 things yeah in Revelation he's that's 5:36 the Bible now I I want to point out that 5:41 not all belief systems are like this and 5:44 I want to be careful about it this is 5:46 not to put other belief systems down I'm 5:50 just saying 5:51 other belief systems are built off a 5:53 different understanding of reality so I 5:57 want to give you this example from the 6:00 Hindu faith this is in one of the 6:05 important books for Hindus it says just 6:08 as the world and its creation mere 6:14 appearances a moment and an epoch are 6:18 also imaginary not real you see in this 6:23 particular view of things what we take 6:25 in through our senses is an illusion 6:27 mm-hmm but in the Christian faith we say 6:31 no no no no no what we take in through 6:33 our senses is a reliable that's reliable 6:40 information about the world in which we 6:43 live very very different things can you 6:46 see why it is that science was built off 6:53 this kind of foundational understanding 6:57 that Christians have I don't want to say 7:00 that because people were Christians they 7:01 became scientists but certainly 7:03 Christianity provides that metaphysical 7:07 foundation that is necessary evidence 7:12 yes so here's an example 7:15 Francis Bacon is one of the founders of 7:19 modern science and he wrote this he said 7:21 to conclude therefore let no man out of 7:25 weak conceit of sobriety or an ill 7:29 applied moderation think or maintain 7:32 that a man can search too far or be too 7:35 well studied in the book of God's Word 7:37 or in the book of God's works divinity 7:43 or philosophy but rather let men 7:48 endeavor an endless progress or 7:51 proficient in both no this is Old 7:56 English isn't it yeah Francis Bacon 7:58 lived hundreds of years ago but he laid 8:00 out this philosophical foundation that 8:03 sort of moved in the direction then of 8:05 the way we understand science today you 8:08 can see he is not discounting the Bible 8:11 or the creation the the nature itself 8:17 he's saying hey these things go together 8:19 in some way and we can understand them 8:21 we should do Oh 8:23 Keppler one of the fathers of modern 8:27 astronomy he he was a priest he was a 8:32 priest basically I believe he was 8:35 Catholic okay yeah and so he wrote these 8:41 laws are within the grasp of the human 8:44 mind God wanted us to recognize them by 8:47 creating us after his own image so that 8:50 we could share his own thoughts so as he 8:55 was sort of understanding these things 8:57 figuring out all these mathematical 8:59 relationships that describe what was 9:01 going on in the heavens he's certainly 9:04 not saying and there is no God or 9:06 anything like that or making up 9:08 arbitrary rules about well we can't 9:10 bring God into things the opposite is 9:12 true 9:13 it was his understanding of God that 9:16 prompted him to move in that direction 9:18 he didn't think oh this is all just an 9:20 illusion so I need to be thinking 9:21 about other things other things are more 9:23 important he's saying no this is 9:25 important let's understand it it tells 9:27 us something about God in fact it even 9:29 goes on and says we astronomers are 9:31 priests of the highest God in regard to 9:34 the book of nature these founders of 9:40 modern science were building off their 9:42 Christian understanding why would I not 9:45 do the same thing today these these were 9:47 great great I think there's great men 9:50 indeed now I want to contrast that with 9:53 this view that people think is Martin 9:55 and the example I'm going to use is 9:57 Jacques Minard 9:58 he is a well as a Nobel Prize winner and 10:01 he wrote this chance alone is at the 10:06 source of every innovation of all 10:08 creation in the biosphere they say it's 10:11 not God it's chance pure chance 10:15 absolutely free but blind at the very 10:19 root of the stupendous edifice of 10:22 evolution this can set this central 10:26 concept of modern biology is no longer 10:30 one among other possible or even 10:32 conceivable hypotheses it is today the 10:36 sole conceivable hypothesis and your 10:39 people look at that and they say well 10:40 that's modern science but it's not it's 10:44 ancient philosophy this is not new this 10:48 is not what modern science grew out of 10:51 in fact we can go back and read Cicero 10:54 this Roman author before the time of 10:57 Christ and Cicero wrote a book called de 10:59 natura deorum which means on the nature 11:01 of the gods it's a dialogue between 11:04 different different people with 11:06 different beliefs about the gods in the 11:08 pantheon that will worship by Romans and 11:11 others and he has here one of these 11:15 these philosophical views the epicurean 11:18 view and this is what the epicurean 11:20 philosopher says he says for he who 11:22 taught us all the rest that's a guy 11:24 named Epicurus has also taught us that 11:27 the world was made by nature without 11:30 needing an artificer to construct it and 11:32 that the act of creation which according 11:35 to 11:35 you cannot be performed without divine 11:37 skill is so easy that nature will create 11:41 is creating and has created worlds 11:43 without number you on the contrary 11:45 cannot see how nature can achieve all 11:47 this without the aid of some 11:49 intelligence 11:50 can you see go back 2,000 years people 11:53 were seeing the same thing it wasn't 11:54 because science compelled them to this 11:56 is their philosophy yes and you know I 12:00 have to say that it seems to me that as 12:03 we advance I would think that people 12:05 would be changing their mind because the 12:08 more science understands as they gain a 12:14 greater understanding the more 12:15 complicated we see that things are 12:18 perhaps they didn't and wonderful it is 12:20 yes I mean and you see it had to be fine 12:24 the Bible never points us away from the 12:27 evidence never does that I love this 12:30 text in Hebrews 2 Hebrews 12:1 therefore 12:33 we also since we are surrounded by so 12:37 great a cloud of witnesses let us lay 12:39 aside every weight and the sin which all 12:42 so easily ensnares us and let us run 12:45 with endurance the race that is set 12:47 before us this is a beautiful beautiful 12:51 thought 12:52 we are not we're not believing by blind 12:55 faith the witnesses are out there we 12:59 have the witness that's recorded in 13:01 Scripture we have the witness in the 13:05 creation that testifies to this 13:08 wonderful creator God in who amazingly 13:12 enough loves us and cares about his 13:15 wayward creation so what can we what 13:19 what's revealed about this well the 13:21 Creator is revealed in the biblical 13:24 worldview 13:24 that serves as the foundation of science 13:27 his value of logic is clear in the 13:31 logical way by which nature works 13:33 his value of our senses is clearly 13:37 revealed in the accuracy with which we 13:41 can gather empirical data he wants us to 13:45 go out there and 13:46 look at and understand this this 13:49 creation and we can do it through 13:54 scientific study man and man and Romans 13:57 1:20 says that God's invisible 14:00 attributes the things about God with 14:03 which we cannot see with her own my eyes 14:06 have been revealed in the things that he 14:09 has created so the Creator is revealed 14:13 in his creation please stay tuned we'll 14:15 be back in just a moment with a special 14:17 guest 14:19 [Music] 14:25 welcome back to the Creator revealed 14:27 we've been talking about Bible truths in 14:31 science and how can a scientist truly 14:36 believe in the Bible well we have a 14:38 special guest with us for this segment 14:41 and he's going to address that yes we're 14:44 meeting with dr. Leonard brand he has 14:47 been a leader among scientists at Loma 14:52 Linda University which is a Christian 14:54 University in California for many many 14:58 years he's author of the book faith 15:00 reason and Earth history so this is 15:03 something that he has given a lot of a 15:05 lot of thought to and in addition to 15:07 that he's the author of many 15:10 peer-reviewed science papers in fact 15:14 right now he's involved in some very 15:16 interesting scientific research that has 15:19 to do with geology so let's let's meet 15:22 dr. brand hi dr. Brenda welcome well 15:28 it's good to talk to you this morning 15:31 you know I think I think what I want to 15:33 do is I want to start out by by asking 15:38 you about this belief that you have in 15:40 the Bible I mean do you really believe 15:42 it or are you sort of giving it more you 15:46 know lip service but kind of redefining 15:50 terms or something so that it doesn't 15:52 get in the way of the science that you 15:54 do no I believe it very much so and it 15:59 doesn't get in the way but who knows 16:03 more about geology we us do we know more 16:06 or does God know more well it's clear to 16:09 me that God knows more and I saw I 16:10 accept what the Bible says okay and and 16:13 so when you are doing your science how 16:16 exactly I mean does the Bible really 16:18 make any difference or is it sort of 16:21 more a kind of moral guide in your life 16:24 and you just sort of believe by faith 16:25 but does it impact your science really 16:28 at all well the the science that's 16:31 impacted the most by the Bible is when 16:35 we're studying ancient history whether 16:37 it be biological 16:38 or geological history that's when it 16:41 matters a lot because the Bible tells us 16:44 that the history of this earth is 16:46 different from what most scientists say 16:48 and so that's what it makes a lot of 16:51 difference and it gives us clues about 16:54 how to how to look at the rocks how to 16:57 understand the rocks clues that we would 17:00 not have had otherwise so what 17:02 specifically okay you do you do geology 17:06 research what in what way does does does 17:12 the Bible inform that okay well one of 17:16 the one of the geological deposits that 17:19 I am studying along with colleagues like 17:21 our Chadwick is the Moen copy formation 17:24 in Utah and the standard explanation is 17:27 that that accumulated over many millions 17:30 of years 17:31 okay well the Bible tells me no it 17:34 didn't happen that way it happened much 17:35 faster and so so I asked questions when 17:39 I want to look at the moon copy that 17:40 other people are not asking and when we 17:43 do that 17:44 I noticed things then it's clear that 17:46 other people are not noticing so that's 17:49 really how it helps so do you want to 17:52 give us some specifics I mean what sort 17:53 of things would you notice that somebody 17:55 else wouldn't really be seeing there 17:57 well they they they would understand 18:01 that these layers in the moon copy were 18:04 deposited very slowly over millions of 18:08 years and when we but when we look at 18:10 them 18:11 we don't see evidence that says no this 18:14 had to be happened very different much 18:16 more catastrophic ly making individual 18:19 deposits of sediment over large areas 18:24 all at once which won't happen in the 18:27 modern world it's always different from 18:29 what how scientists would interpret 18:31 things that they look at at how things 18:35 happen in the modern world how streams 18:37 deposit sediments how rivers deposited 18:41 sediments and other processes and then 18:44 they would look at the rocks and assume 18:46 that the rocks were formed in the same 18:49 way that we see processes happen 18:52 today and but that's an assumption when 18:56 we look at at the at the rocks with a 18:59 biblical insight we see that that the 19:02 evidence doesn't fit that the evidence 19:04 says this was this was deposited in not 19:08 like it happens in the modern world but 19:10 something very different on a 19:11 catastrophic large scale okay so that 19:14 that actually brings up really two other 19:18 questions that I would have number one 19:22 what you're saying then is that whatever 19:26 the process was that created these 19:29 really widespread layers of sedimentary 19:33 rock it's different than what what we 19:36 observe going on today that's right very 19:40 different and it this and this is not 19:43 just in this one deposit I'm talking 19:45 about it it's you find it all through 19:48 the rocks when we look at them carefully 19:51 letting the Bible suggests to us new 19:54 ways of interpreting okay and then then 19:57 the second question then would be well 19:59 what is it in the Bible that that 20:02 suggests that there was a different 20:04 something something uniquely different 20:06 going on in the past 20:08 well the Bible gives a timeframe since 20:11 creation of a few thousand years and it 20:14 tells us about the global flood okay 20:16 which was not just streams depositing 20:19 sand and gravel it was a catastrophic 20:22 very large-scale global process and so 20:25 we have to put the rocks in that context 20:29 when we're studying them and that's what 20:30 gives us insights to see them 20:33 differently from what other peoples how 20:35 other people see them now I know that 20:39 you you you've mentioned this kind of 20:41 gradual istic process where what what we 20:46 observe going on today and what I'm 20:51 wondering is okay I know that that's 20:54 been a widespread view among geologists 20:57 for quite some time it's certainly the 20:59 kind of geology I was taught when I was 21:01 a student but as other scientists a look 21:05 at these and other rock layers and so on 21:09 they also coming to similar conclusions 21:13 are they invoking some kind of 21:15 catastrophes or or or the majority of 21:18 geologists sort of sticking with this 21:21 slow gradual gradual istic kind of view 21:26 of geology well let's look at a brief 21:30 bit of history about this concept that 21:32 you're asking in say the 1700s and the 21:37 early 1800s most geologists were 21:40 catastrophist they saw things happening 21:42 catastrophic ly agile a couple of 21:45 geologists wrote books that change this 21:47 and and the primary one was Lyell in in 21:51 the mid 1800s he wrote a set of two 21:54 books that redefined the field of 21:56 geology and actually began geology as an 21:59 organized science and he didn't like 22:01 this catastrophism and so he he defined 22:06 geology by saying that everything 22:09 happens slowly and gradually there are 22:11 no catastrophes and that was a was and 22:15 that dominated geology for a century 22:18 everything happens very slowly and 22:21 gradually there are no catastrophes in 22:24 in the early decades of the 1900s there 22:27 was an independent thinking geologist 22:28 who who challenged that with the deposit 22:31 he was studying in Washington State and 22:33 he he - even though the others ridiculed 22:38 him for several decades he continued 22:41 collecting data and he finally showed 22:43 that yes this deposit he was studying 22:45 was formed by a catastrophe and so that 22:48 finally woke up other geologists but it 22:52 made only a small change they still see 22:56 geologic processes is happening 22:58 generally slowly and gradually but they 23:01 do recognize that once in a while there 23:02 was some kind of a catastrophe so 23:05 basically not ease so so basically what 23:08 they're saying is there were several 23:11 major catastrophes in the past something 23:14 things that occurred on almost a global 23:16 scale 23:18 mmm I don't think they'd say global this 23:21 is much local it will accept some 23:24 relatively local catastrophes but 23:29 otherwise things have moved slowly and 23:31 gradually okay so basically they're 23:34 saying a big catastrophe over here a big 23:36 catastrophe over there but no universal 23:40 or no global catastrophe they don't they 23:43 don't want to put them all together into 23:44 one big thing no they don't actually 23:48 that some of the evidence would fit that 23:49 better but but they're there their 23:53 assumptions their paradigm will not 23:55 allow that because that sounds you know 23:57 well put it this way if you try to be so 24:01 catastrophic that it questions the 24:03 Darwinian evolutionary process the the 24:07 millions of years of evolution and 24:08 geologic process then that's a problem 24:11 they won't accept that okay well thank 24:15 you so very much for your time I there's 24:20 probably one more question that I have 24:23 and that really has to do with what 24:25 we've been talking about right now which 24:27 is would you say that people who believe 24:32 the Bible are having an influence on the 24:36 wider thinking about geology or would 24:39 you say that the people are simply being 24:43 drawn by the data more towards this 24:46 catastrophic kind of view well when we 24:50 publish papers in the scientific 24:52 literature we have to be careful what we 24:53 say we can't talk about a biblical 24:55 worldview we can't talk about anything 24:57 that we present the data and talk about 25:01 how it specifically applies to what 25:03 we're studying and so in that sense 25:06 we're having influence here and there 25:08 we're not changing the way geologists 25:11 think in general okay well thank you so 25:14 much for your time dr. Brandt it's been 25:16 a real pleasure and thanks for the work 25:18 that you're doing there at Loma Linda 25:19 University dr. brands office is quite 25:22 close to my own and it's an honor to 25:24 work on that campus with these these 25:27 incredible people 25:28 thank you dr. brand you're welcome 25:32 you know Shelley it's it's a common idea 25:35 that scientists like dr. brand are a 25:38 rarity but in reality I encounter them 25:41 all the time 25:42 I believe the Bible I do science dr. 25:45 bran believes the Bible he does science 25:48 excellent science it gets published in 25:50 that sort of rough-and-tumble world of 25:52 publishing science papers that's it's 25:55 not a joke your ideas really have to be 25:58 tested very thoroughly and and yet 26:02 they're everywhere and more and more 26:05 scientist and reading books and reading 26:07 excerpts from books that more and more 26:10 scientists are coming over that they're 26:13 you know people who were atheist are now 26:16 believing in the biblical account 26:21 overcome this materialistic philosophy 26:23 that we tend to get indoctrinated with 26:26 then it is absolutely true that the 26:29 creation does point you towards the 26:32 creator and it really does reveal the 26:35 creator to us well science is exciting 26:38 and we are just so thankful to have 26:42 these wonderful people come and share 26:44 this good information with us and that 26:47 you can know it isn't contradictory to 26:50 believe both the Bible and have a 26:52 scientific mind please join us next time 26:55 because we're going to talk out about 26:57 how you can share the creation 27:01 [Music] 27:22 you